How to involve researchers and stakeholders

SPEAKER: Just to begin I would like to introduce our Vice President for Research and Innovation, Orofessor Anita Maguire who will say a few words here on behalf of University College Cork. Thank you very much.

VICE PRESIDENT R&I Thank you, Mary.

I’m delighted to have an opportunity to briefly introduce this presentation this morning. you know, as with all universities we're very much a research-focused institution, and we recognize that the standing of the university nationally and internationally is very much dependent on the quality and the visibility of our research at an international level.

Research is really central to what we do here in University College Cork and we recognize that, you know, looking after our researchers, supporting them as they develop their careers, is absolutely critical to our success in research. In this context, University College Cork was really delighted to embrace the Charter and Code for researchers and HR Excellence in Research as we saw these as really helpful tools to help us in internally developing the environment for researchers within the university.

Indeed, we were delighted that University College Cork was the first University in the country to have our HRS4R awards renewed in recent years.

As part of the HRS4R process, which is laid here at UCC by Mary Kate o’Regan, we've pursued a number of initiatives to really embed the process within the University, and ensure that our researchers came from the experience of being part of a university which embraces HRS4R. So some of these were opportunities for researcher career development, at a personal level the Odyssey program which Mary will tell you about later this morning, and we developed a post-doc development hub which provides a resource for post-docs as they develop their career, professional skills for research leaders initiative and policy development to support the development of researchers in the university.

They were all steps in the implementation of the University College Cork action plan which we submitted for HRS4R. Around the globe they've really changed the environment for researchers working here, but for at least the PI is or supervising the researchers and for the researchers themselves it's really enabled high quality environment for the research activity.

In parallel with these initiatives, we've also focused on ensuring that researchers are actively integrated into local decision-making, local and wider research communities. So in the schools in which they're based in the college and at university levels ensuring the voice of researchers is integrated into the into all steps at those levels is extremely important to ensure the perspective of researchers is fed into our decision-making processes.

Clearly for University College Cork, European funding through horizon 2020 and into the future through Horizon Europe, is extremely important to our University, with very ambitious targets for our participation in these activities. Not only for the funding for research, which we secured through these awards, but more importantly the connection it builds for researchers and University College Cork whith researchers all over Europe, which really enriches the research ideas and the delivery of research programs.

For us embracing the HRS4R program is a key step in preparing our researchers to complete at a European level for the important funding calls which we anticipate into the future. University College Cork really recognises that actively developing our researchers for their future research careers a really important process of providing an environment for research.

Researchers go on to be academic researchers, some of them progress into the enterprise sector, some progressed into many different areas, but the skills they learn along the way (the project management's communication skills you the ability to assimilate information and organise information) all of those skills are extremely important for them in their future careers and part of the steps we've taken here is ensuring those researchers obviously maximise the skills they gain but also know how to articulate those skills and how to communicate them for various opportunities.

As a researcher here in University College Cork I have seen the environment here for researchers really grow through our engagement in the HRS4R process. We've been very fortunate to have Mary Kate o’Regan leading us here, she's a very innovative leader in the space and she certainly, you know, managed to change the environment for researchers here in the university and we frequently hear our researchers coming back acknowledging the steps that were taken and the opportunities that were provided to them through the initiatives that Mary has made here at University College Cork.

This has been a really positive journey for us as a research-focused University and I'm sure it will continue to be into the future so I'm delighted to hand you over to Mary now.

SPEAKER:Thank you very much professor okay thank you, thanks for your time.

Good morning everyone and welcome to UCC Ireland. I'm here to talk to you on the topic of how to involve and engage stakeholders and researchers in the HRS4R process.

But before I start I would just really like to thank Lana, Anna, Mihaela, Michele and Keira Murphy here in UCC, who helped me very much with the technology of getting all this together, and of course all of you who are listening here this morning throughout Europe. I'm delighted to be here and I'm delighted that you guys are listening.

So, today my talk is going to cover: what are the advantages of HRS4R? Who are the main stakeholders, who are the people that you need to engage with? what are the benefits to your organization and of involving stakeholders in this process? How to engage your stakeholderst? It’s all very well saying “yeah, we have all these stakeholders” but how do you actually really engage people in this process? And some examples, some real examples of what University College Cork did and some ideas that you can take away and hopefully use them in your own organization.

So, I was thinking about this presentation and I was like “where do I start with this, okay? How do I approach this topic? And for me the only way to start is by thinking about the advantages that HR excellence in research the Charter and Code, and of course HRS4R will bring to the organization.

• So,at the top of the list is that it adds value to funding applications. For instance, an awful lot of the principal investigators in UCC contacted me about the training and development that we provide when particularly Marie Curie applications are going in.
• It demonstrates a commitment to good working conditions and career development for researchers, which of course makes your university much more attractive to good talent coming from other organizations.
• It promotes this commitment to researchers who may be considering moving to your institution,
• And of course, one of the big added advantages is, if you have the HRS4R Award and if you advertise on your access jobs this award is placed next to your advert, so that's really good.
• It brings opportunities to share practice with other award holders. For instance this event today is a really good way for UCC to share its experience and for you guys to think about this, and perhaps share your experiences.
• It also increases the attractiveness of research careers in Europe which is really, really important, because through more attractive working conditions and more open, more transparent and merit-based recruitment processes Europe becomes more competitive. Europe really needs to build its competitive advantage in the area of research.
• So embedding is very, very important you heard our Vice President for research they're talking about embedding HRS4R within the strategic goals of the organization. This really includes improving the quality and impact of research in your organization, in UCC and in our organizations and universities throughout Europe.
• The open transparent and merit-based recruitment policies, and speak to the appointment the development and retention of the best staff in research throughout Europe.
• It prepares researchers for wide employability and economic contribution to their own nationalities, their own countries and to Europe in general. So really we are through improving the working conditions, improving the terms and conditions, improving training and development we are helping to prepare all of our researchers to pursue rewarding careers both within academia and beyond academia.
• HRS4R is also catalyst for change and it supports cultural change internally and I'm going to speak a little bit about that later on in my presentation, on how you can actually use HRS4R, use HR Excellence to affect change in your organization.
• Of course, it supports internal processes, because when you're doing an action plan based on the Gap analysis, based on your surveys you leads to very useful and helpful conversations about implementation, process-evaluation and also recognizing, refining and developing good practice. So this whole HR Excellence of Research leads to these really vital conversations between your peers, between researchers, between all your stakeholders throughout your organization and throughout Europe, which leads to best practice in how you manage and assist researchers within your own organization.
• And this of course we raises the status of your organization and helps to improve the perception and the reality that this HR Excellence and Researcher more marks your institution has being one of the best. I mean it really is a wonderful award to have and it has really raised the profile of UCC and I have seen it raise the profile of other organizations in Europe also.

So here are some examples of the advantages to UCC that the HR Excellence and Research Award and the whole HRS4R process has brought because, really, without it we wouldn't have tackled the policy development that we needed to do, we wouldn't probably have engaged in the postdoc departmental, professional skills for research leaders, we hold a HR Researcher Conference over here, we provide CV assistance and advice, individual CV assistance, and advice to all our researchers, and we have just introduced the Odyssey program here in UCC.

· And there is also, of course, this wonderful Accolade that we are the first University on the island of Ireland to have our award renewed and we're very, very proud of that fact here in University Colleg Cork.

· We have the OTM-R policy.

· We have guidelines for teaching for research staff, which is another positive development, because of HR Excellence in Research. We have a career framework policy for research staff

· And we have now introduced appointment regulations for senior research staff because of our own OTMR policy

· And we have uniform job descriptions and job adverts for or two which is postdocs senior postdocs research fellows or three and senior research fellows or four.

So all of this information is available on our website and throughout this presentation you will see links to you see UCC's website, and I think Lana is going to be sending that the presentation to all participants so please use the links, look at the mod use what you wish it's all there, it's all open until are transparent.

So again, the title is how to involve and engage stakeholders and researchers in the process and so, who are the stakeholders? And for me the stakeholders are researchers, universities and research institutions, funding providers, the European Commission, of course, industry and private enterprises. These are very important employers of researchers, and many of them have actually applied for the HR excellence in Research Award. And supporting acts actors of course such as national and European EURAXESS networks, which is why we are all here today.

It's important to keep all these stakeholders in your mind and what you are thinking about how to implement HR Excellence in Research in your own organization, and of course the benefits of involving stakeholders are very important:

· it offers those who will affect or be affected by the outcomes of HRS4R a chance to voice their opinions. So it's very important when you're thinking about change or Excellence in Research and changes that will come about because of HR excellence in research in your organization it's very important that all your stakeholders have the option to voice their opinions.

· These ensures also that your organization has greater clarity and a shared way forward amongst its key stakeholders. You need to get a commitment from everyone and you need to hear what everybody has to say, so that you can collegially go forward in a shared way.

· And it enables your organization to identify and understand the relationship that stakeholders have with the HRS4R action plan. An action plan must involve everyone, it can't just be a HR action plan, you need to involve researcher groups, you need to involve the offices of research support, you need to involve all the various elements that make your organisation tick, because in that way with involvement you get slowly but surely embedding.

· It brings people together, stake over and stakeholder involvement to prove knowledge experience and expertise, to co-create solutions for the HRS4R plan, and co-creating solutions is very, very important, because people feel that their voice is heard.

· It helps to build collaborative partnerships within your organization and new relationships that generate value to the HRS4R.

So, things to remember about stakeholders in my opinion are: you need to be clear and consistent with your communication, you need to agree the engagement required from stakeholders via discussion, as I said, and consultation, and build the HRS4R actions around disengagement. Action owners and timelines as I have said are very, very important. Sometimes actions build actually quite often built from earlier actions and so this whole engagement this whole evolutionary process is very, very important.

Don't forget your stakeholders know the strengths and weaknesses of your organization from the ground up and HRS4R is all about highlighting your strengths and addressing your organisation's weaknesses, so that you can move forward in a very positive way. And firsthand knowledge of what it takes to deliver your HRS4R initiatives will come from your stakeholders, and we've come from inclusion of your stakeholders.

But, okay I can hear you all saying: “Yeah that sounds great, Mary, but how do I actually do it, how do you engage stakeholders in this whole process, in the HR Excellence in Research process?”. So, today I'm going to concentrate on stakeholders, four of them, three of them actually: Researchers, the Hierarchy, people like professor Anita Maguire, who came in here this morning to give an introduction and to show how important HR excellence in research is to UCC, and the European Commission.

For me those stakeholders, if you keep engagement and involvement with those stakeholders in the first instance, the other stakeholders will become a natural part of what you are doing.

1- So we all love research staff, but they can be very difficult to engage, they may not be too interested in what you are doing, they're always really, really busy, and they do, I know, they ignore my emails, okay? So I have researchers say to me “Oh Mary, your email went into my spam account”, okay? But don't give up, we are all in the same boat. Researchers traditionally, and I say this with love, are very, very hard to engage. So what did I do? What did you CC do?

a. Well, the first thing I did, I remember, was I built a really good website I made things easy for our research staff to find. There's a link there to our website so you can click on that when you receive the presentation. So, our websites are HR Research websites, it is a platform that shows researchers all the supports that are available to them. It puts out all the forms they need to use within easy reach. It has “this is the form you need”, “this is who you need to send it to”, “this is how you fill it in”… It showcases all our developments and is transparent and it's open to all so all of you can look at it. Anybody who's thinking about coming to UCC can look at our website, everything is available there.

b. And then I began to introduce training and development programs. These were also actions on our HRS4R action plan, so what happened with these, I began to meet researchers one to one. When I was talking to them I never promised them anything that I couldn't deliver. If they were asking for pay raises I explained “this is why I cannot give you a pay raise, it's not in my gift”. If they were asking for things that cost an awful lot of money because I don't have a huge budget I would say “I can't do this, but this is actually what I can do”. And once you explain to people why you can't deliver on something they begin to believe in what you can deliver it and I provide a training on a whole range of skills. I started with postdocs, I then went to senior researchers like research fellows and senior research fellows, I'm doing a research assistants training… So, I began to look at all the various levels of research staff within the organization and I created bespoke training programs just for them. These programs were also a mechanism for them to get together and meet one another because sometimes researchers can have a very lonely existence in an organization: they may be in a lab somewhere, they may not be able to meet other researchers, and so having programs, regular training programs. For instance the postdoc development table is on a Friday from 10:00 to 12:00 every Friday, and if you go there regularly you meet other postdocs, and there is coffee and cakes as well, so that's actually another good thing that encourages them to coming up.

c. So I also do as I said earlier a Researcher Conference, so I do what I'm really interesting topics I don't do it on research per se, I do it on the characteristics that are required to be a researcher in 2019, or 2018, or 2020, such as endurance, courage,… You know when I get researchers to talk about these topics, it’s actually proving a very popular event every year, more researchers are coming every single year, it's another great way for researchers to meet one another, and it's a lovely way to highlight HR Excellence in Research at work within the organization.

d. Another thing I did was I constituted working groups for HR excellence in research, lots of them. Of course I have the senior working group but I also have a whole lot of other working groups on the HR excellence in research, action plans, and I speak to them regularly about development and I get their feedback. So you begin to get and cooperation and support from the researchers themselves if you involve them every step of the way. We also provide information sessions on hrs per hour and other initiatives and I invite researchers and the Hierarchy to these sessions, sometimes I get the president of UCC to open one of those sessions, sometimes like professor Anita Maguire will open it, sometimes my boss, the director of Human Resources will open it. So it's actually including people it's including the hierarchy, it's also delivering a message from the hierarchy to our research staff about how important they take HR Actions in research.

e. And of course I created loads of email groups of people who have completed training. So, if I need advice on something that I'm thinking of implementing I email a certain group and I will turn to them first for their thoughts, for what they I could do, how I can change, how I can tweek. All of these are very simple little things to do, they don't cost any money and I suppose, you know, it's stuff that I learned as I was going along.

f. And of course I introduced, UCC introduced a whole load of policies as well, such as the Open, Transparent and Merit-based Recruitment policy.

g. So here is an example of researcher engagement: so we did UCC Researchers Survey, out of that survey 63% of all researchers who answered the survey said that they are willing to participate on school and college committees. So what did that say to me? It said researchers want more involvement with the decisions that affect them. So, how do you translate the results of a survey into something that you can actually do: an action? So in the center you see survey results are 63%. What I did was I put that on the agenda of the senior HRS4R Working Group within the organization. The group discussed the issue, we discussed possible solutions and challenges to that, and then we have formed an action with an owner and time limit on that action for the action plan. So that's actually, those are the steps. I hope it's clear, but those are the steps that UCC took to actually take a result from the survey which was feedback from our researchers stakeholders and change it into something that they will see that we have actually done something about.

h. So here is these are the working group minute notes. So the agenda item was researcher engagement on school and college committees, how do we enable that? The challenges identified were for us like each organization will have their own challenges, but one of the challenges was that researchers may identify with different schools, are different colleges due to the multidisciplinary nature of their research, so how do we actually action that? So, we felt that was a really strong statement of inclusion towards the research community from the Hiierarchy, and I believe that we will agree at the next meeting, which is happening on the 11th of December, but that statement will come from both the President of UCC and the Vice President for Research in January 2020. That this is something that needs to really happen. And this is building from an earlier action, which was included in our action plan, which stated that researchers need to be on governing body and academic council and that has been actioned. So that actually happened first, but now what we need are more researchers involved in school committees, and in academic unit committees, so that their voices are heard. So, it's a star, it's an opening conversation, it's something that is evolving within UCC, and it takes time for these things to evolve.

i. So you need what's really important for your researchers stakeholders, you need to demonstrate that you are listening and that you are working to address their issues where you can, and that is very, very important.

j. Here's another example: so another survey result results said to us research support staff wanted a bespoke training program just for them. So, an action on our action plan was created regarding research support training but that was a bit vague to me, so what I did was, I I did a really short survey for Research Support Assistants actually, and I sent them sent them the survey just to be clear: But what exactly, what training do you really want? I sent it to about 200 of our research assistants and they fed back to that, I worked with a team of people under HR Excellence in Research and we created together a Research Assistants Skills Training Digital Badge which we just rolled out. And as you can see, our motto was “you say, we listen, we act”. So that is again building commitment and trust throughout the organization. And as you can see, I hope you can see, the HR Excellence in Research logo is actually included in the Digital Badge, which of course is an example of embedding HR Excellence in Research within our organization here in UCC.

2- And then of course there's the Hierarchy of your organization and HR Excellence in Research. And of course, they want HRS4R for your organization, they need you to do the work, they probably don't have any resources to support you, which is the case here in UCC. I don't have a huge budget to do all the stuff that I'd really like to do, so I depend on the kindness of my colleagues to assist me. And the hierarchy are very, very busy. And you are probably the real leader of HRS4R in your organization, and of course that leads me just very quickly to you HRS4R, you may feel frustrated sometimes, you may feel lonely you may feel that you're getting nowhere, you may think that no one is listening. Sometimes I feel like that, and we all feel like that sometimes. That is why the Hierarchy in your organization are very, very important.

a. Start with the big picture, don't get too specific. When you're talking to the hierarchy, think about talking to them in bullet points.

b. Understand that they don't know it all, they know that it's good for the organization, but they may not understand the nuances of the work, they won't understand about the forms that need to be filled in and all of that, that's your role.

c. Make them look good. 

d. Small easy wins first, low-hanging fruit.

e. And ask them to send out an email about something, if you're implementing something new as a direct result of HR Excellence and Research in your organization ask your Vice President for Research to send the email with the HR excellence and research logo on it. Or ask the Chancellor, or the president, or whoever, ask them to send it out, it brings them into the picture. Ask them to put HRS4R logo on their emails all the time, maybe they will, maybe they won't. I know for instance that my colleagues here in Human Resources all use the HR Excellence in Research logo and that is really important, it's sending a message.

f. Keep the hierarchy updated on your progress, let them know that you are achieving things.

g. Ensure that the HRS4R supports and is included in your institutional strategy. Now that is easier said than done, and I'm going to get back to that in just one second.

h. Include a member or even two members of your Senior Management team in the HRS4R advisory lead working group or whatever you call it in your organization, make sure you have somebody from your top table in that group.

How this works in practice? How do you get HRS4R included in your organisation's strategic plan? Well,this is how I did it: UCC was preparing for the renewal phase. I knew that embedding and ambition are key to this part, the stage of the process. I highlighted this to my HR s for working group in terms of risk to the University. What if we lost the Award? I mean that would be absolutely dreadful. The working group ensured that research careers and HRS4R made it into UC C's strategic plan because I had prepped them, I knew what was coming and I told them the importance of getting this into our strategic plan. Because not only is it telling the Hierarchy a message, it is also telling the researchers in our organization that we take this extremely seriously.

Here's an example of UCC strategic plan you can look at it, it’s there, it's on our website from 2017 to 2022. So, you can see here in 2013 UCC was conferred with the HR Excellence in Research Award. And then further on it says “we want to improve the International profile of UCC as a center of excellence for research training, and ensuring that UCC is a location of choice for internationally competitive junior and senior researchers”. And then even more, implementing career progression structures, provide a dynamic and support of research environment, and of course develop improved career structures for our researchers. So that was a really good and important statement and in our action plan I was able to put a link to UCC's strategic plan and the pages that all of these were included on to say that “yes, we have embed, we are embedding this within our organization”.

i. So remember to define the role your hierarchy have throughout the project evolution, give them actions make them committee members, etc.

j. Maintain close communication and if necessary flag certain issues with them, but don't overburden them.

k. Demonstrate to them the importance of HRS4R within the context of your organization

l. And demonstrate the impact, I mean the return on investment.

m. the HRS4R action plan can be part of the organization's strategy, and the Hierarchy are critical for institutional buy-in. And it was really important for me to include and get buy-in from our Hierarchy so that HR Excellence in Research made it into our strategic path.

You've just saw Anita Maguire earlier. This is a picture of Anita Maguire, our professor and Vice President for Research and Innovation, that went everywhere when our HR Excellence in Research Award was renewed. We were absolutely delighted and so was she.

So here is an example of engagement between the hierarchy and researchers, so again, many researchers in UCC do not have anyone to advise them on career development. So this became an action in our action plan which came from the results of a survey, and it also came from the results of some of the focus groups, and the HR Excellence in Research groups that I had with research staff throughout the organization.

So we introduced the UCC Odyssey program: I had to get buy-in from the top and researchers wanted it. I included the Hierarchy in every step of this particular program and I engaged our researchers in focus groups, many, many focus groups, it takes an awful lot of time. And is whilst delivered and the Hierarchy got their return on investment, and I’m not talking constantly about money here, the return on investment at times can be their time, can be their effort.

The Irish Times on the 12th of November put this article out which made our Hierarchy look really good, it made UCC look good in Ireland here is a quote: “few if any higher education institutes have been brave enough to tell the truth about the newly nearly insurmountable pathway between PhD and academic career, but in UCC the whole institution, including the President and Vice President for Research have supported Odyssey”. And that is an example of bringing together your Hierarchy who you need to enable you to bring in change, to bring in new programs, and your researchers, who will avail of these programs. And that is when things begin to come together, when things aligned. And so that was very, very important for UCC because the Irish Times, educational section is read all over Ireland it's a really important publication here, it's our national daily paper.

So if in doubt about your Hierarchy use the advantages I included in the earlier part of this presentation to persuade them how critical HRS4R is to your organization. Again Lana I'm sure will be sending this out to you, please use all the arguments and come up with your own arguments so that you can sit down and discuss with your Hierarchy how important it is to have HR Excellence in Research and how important it is to embed HR Excellence in Research within your organization.

3- So the third and group of stakeholders I want to talk about are the European Commission. And of course they are so important so get involved, go to training and development workshops that they provide in Brussels and in other countries. There you will meet like-minded colleagues at training sessions and events, and you can reach out and share best practices, it's a really great reason to go to these particular events, because you find out what other people are doing in other countries in other organizations. And you can say, “well yeah that might work for us but if we changed it a little bit…” and all of that. Get to know the EC HRS4R team, it's really important to get to know them. Become an Assessor, go to the training for Assessors, you know, it's really, really interesting you see what is happening all over Europe and it's really, really rewarding to see other organizations progress within this whole area. And keep the HR Excellence in Research flag flying and there it is, and that is what this is all about it's about spreading the knowledge, spreading the goodwill, spreading the best practice and enabling other organizations to benefit from this wonderful, wonderful program.

So here's an example of UCC engagement with the European Commission, who I believe is one of our stakeholders and really is one of our very important stakeholders. So I am a lead Assessor for the European Commission, I present on behalf of the European Commission I'm doing it today for EURAXESS but I know that the European Commission were instrumental in that. I train other assessors for the Commission, I might visit different countries which is wonderful, some of you are listening in today, to enable individual universities and organizations. I help to develop best practices in UCC and within the Commission in some of the groups that I'm involved in, to enable other organizations to succeed and of course I run an annual HRS4R master class here in UCC every April, and it's going ahead in April this year on the 28th and 29th I think of April. But I thought, you know, this is something that is so important, so what I call it is “UCC Gives Back”. So my organization enables me to give up my time to help other universities to succeed, and that's something that I think is very, very important and so now it is an action on the UCC action plan. There's a link there UCC gives back you can take a look at that link and it may start your thoughts rolling as well. The European Commission are enabling me, UCC is enabling me, I am helping other organisations, so it's like this continuous circle of improvement and it's really, really wonderful to be involved in such a thing.

So with HR excellence in research really, what you are building in your organisation is trust: trust from the researchers, trust from your Hierarchy, and trust with regards to the European Commission. So it's building this trust that this is a very powerful and rewarding program within your organization. It touches on so many lives, really.

And what's important to me? Well, of course the Charter&Code and all the HR Excellence in Research policy that is available actually and their website. Working closely with the European Commission and other member states, the HRS4R and research working groups and action plans, and the terms of reference for our highest HR Excellence in Research working group. That is really, really important. You can click on that and take a look at what we put together, because it's a framework for progressing the work of the group within the organization and it's actually, I have found it to be a really important document for me and really helps me when I'm trying to implement HRS4R within at UCC.

But really for me, the researchers are the most important. And I think if you help your researchers you can't go too far wrong and if you help them and if that is the case and they know it they will engage with you. They will because I have found that to be the case.

But don't forget be kind to yourself, be patient, this doesn't happen overnight, good things take time. I'm a lead Assessor, I look at the development of this through organizations throughout Europe, I understand where people are the starting point, and we understand that this takes a lot of time, because good things take time and HR Excellence in Research is a good thing, and it's an evolving process.

So be good to yourself and it's really well worth it and I hope I have demonstrated that through the examples that I have given. By the way don't hesitate to tweet, my twitter handle is @MarykateUCC, so please don't hesitate to tweet about this you wish.

And it just leaves me to say Merry Christmas. Now I had to look at all the different countries I don't know if I have all of you, but here are some that I could find from all the various countries that are tuning in today and if I hope I haven't forgotten and I hope I haven't made some sort of terrible mistake and translation but I hope not. And here you go and Merry Christmas to you all, and Happy New Year.

And you probably all have my email address I know Lana said if you have any questions you can contact her, but please I'm also here to help you on your way, and it just leaves me to say there is everybody I think, “kirov me in a while” but which means “thank you very much” in the Irish language and it's been such a pleasure for me today and I hope you have enjoyed this podcast and I hope it was interesting and helpful to you. So thank you very, very much